A Lady of Reason

Your Choice, Their Body…

I’m sure you all have heard of the recent laws being passed in several states restricting women’s abilities to get abortions. For many, it’s a victory in the fight to recognize the human right to life for the unborn, but for others, it comes as a severe blow for women’s rights to her bodily autonomy. Abortion is an incredibly heated topic, perhaps more so than all the others I’ve covered on this blog! Regardless of where you personally stand on the issue, I think much of the controversy rests in the fact that many pro-choice people miss the points the pro-life side is trying to make. The pro-choice side sees it as a struggle against the “patriarchy” over obsessive control over women’s bodies and has decided that men have no say in the matter, and argue that person hood and the rights that come with it don’t start until birth. However, the pro-life arguments I have heard have nothing to do with obsessively controlling what women do with their bodies, and all about protecting any ethical concerns regarding the person hood and right to life of the developing fetus. To many pro-life people, they define those rights beginning at conception. Some define it after a heart beat begins at around 6 weeks. Some factor in the when ability for pain and suffering would be present in the equation.

As to my own personal views on the matter, I will only say this right now: The issue is not all black and white, but ANY viewpoint or decision on the matter has to be about the child’s interests, NOT what’s merely convenient for mom! I’m honestly enraged by the blasé attitude of “my body my choice”, because the child growing inside of you is its own entity despite needing your body for survival for the first 9 months. Yes, bearing a child to term is a drain on your body, but just because your already born kids are a drain on your bank account doesn’t give you the moral right to terminate your parenthood over them, now does it?… Why not a “my bank account, my rules” clause too that relives parents of the legal obligation to feed and clothe their kids as well? A fetus depends on your body but is NOT part of your body and regardless if you are pro-choice or pro-life that’s just biology. It is not your cells. It is not your DNA. It often is not your blood type, and what many women find out the hard way, nor your Rh factor. The REAL crux of the issue is not about whether or not it’s biologically part of your own body, but the point at which it gains its own moral person hood and human rights in its own interests apart from yours, which is a nuanced and contentiously debated issue!

And nuanced and high stakes ethical issues require all sides be on the same page as to what’s being argued. I can respect arguments about the quality of life for the child after it’s born, as part of honoring life is understanding that all life is sacred, but the quality of that life matters just as much as being biologically alive. I can understand arguments about the mother’s health and safety in extreme cases other than mere inconvenience or some discomfort. What I cannot and will not consider though, is the total disregard for the fact that there even is a separate life to consider in the equation! 

The radical Leftist pro-choice side has lost more and more credibility with me the more they deny there are any rights to be considered for the child and couch their arguments in terms of convenience and argue strawmans about some mythical right-wing fundamentalist “patriarchy” in a mass conspiracy to get women pregnant and keep them that way. Really? The guys would have to pay child support for the next 18 years then! If they were being selfish and callous, they would encourage MORE abortions! He wants to cover up his mistake too… Oh, and the idea terminating a life is merely a “medical procedure” sounds chilling to both sides in any other context… Conversely, I have only gained more respect for pro-life arguments which do consider the interests of the unborn child above all else, because that’s what a parent does, and I agree parenthood morally begins once you know you’re pregnant, (and many on either side agree in terms of drinking and drugs while pregnant…) and parents put their children first above all else. Do I think the mother has zero rights herself? No, but while every life is sacred and person deserving of their human rights including mom, a mother puts her children first.

However, we could avoid this entire issue and the ugly realities it brings out for both sides of the debate if people could have the self control to not pop out unwanted kids then feel the need to clean up the mess! In that I agree with the pro-choice side: Your body, your choice, but also your consequences! With freedom, comes responsibility ladies. If you expect a man to step up to the plate if you choose to keep your baby, then why can’t you hold yourself to that same standard? Sex is NOT a right, and it’s certainly not a right to bring a child into this world you can’t care for and won’t want to! Prevention is the best cure!

Oh, and to the women on sex strike not raising future kids they will resent or turn into soy boys or radical man haters, thank you for this wonderful gift to humanity! 😉

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(Oh, and P.S., all the conservative men said “NO!” first 😉 )

38 comments

  1. What about the man’s choice? no one thinks about that side, too busy with “more power to females”, and “her body, her choice”.
    I may remind you that while yes it is her body, what is inside of her is half his. that means half of the pregnancy belongs to him. I’m sure everyone understands the biology, half of his DNA and half of her DNA.

    I was with a girl, she got pregnant after the 1st or 2month. had I found out if she aborted without telling me, after the fact, I’d dump her faster than superman on rubbish day. because i could not trust such a selfish coward, and that she did not and would not trust me or be able to respect me in the future.
    Same sort of thing if she did tell me but went ahead with the vacuuming against what i wanted, but with less of her being cowardly and more of her being able to trust me that i would trust her to be honest about it.

    the truth of what happened was that by luck i found out that she was going to a 2nd appointment because the first try was unsuccessful due to her being well-fed (by me, every day) or some other nonsense reason. *ladies take note: go down on him while you break the news.
    so we talked about it and discussed. the first people was our parents, then friends co-workers, rando internet people. after a month we both decided to have the baby.

    here’s the important part: my reasoning was that, as a man at age 25, working full time, own place, car, etc.
    1. we had lived our life. Teen rebellion, romances, party years, etc.
    2. here is a person who should be given a chance at what we had.
    3. did not want to regret something everyday for 80+ years until my deathbed.
    4. one best pieces of advice from my father: “u need house, job, stop the parties. just conform”.
    5. we were fit and healthy and able, there was no reason for termination, and so what it wasn’t a stable relationship. give it time we’ll make it work, so we thought. who the hell are we to determin who gets to live and who doesn’t.

    unfortunately my girlfriend was not mature enough for committed family relationships and left me for selfish reasons (another man whom after a couple of years is no where to be found of course).
    but my fatherhood continues and 10 years on i am thankful everyday for my daughter.

    under consenting circumstances, men have equal rights and an equal say in the matter. do not dismiss him because he does not carry the child; he carries the burden, the responsibility too. 50/50 (females can have an extra 1% out of gentlemanship because of the whole foetus inside your womb and you looking amazing).

    *as a side note LOR you have a lot good points but i am “pro life” (under normal circumstances, both healthy consenting mature minded adults). as in if god deems that the abortion is greenlit, then that child will have the chance at a full life without god.

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    • I tend to be pro-choice.. but you make good first-hand reasoning for pro-life. If nothing else, the decision to abort can and is a very complex situation and very likely there is no “correct” answer. If anything it’s the result of unplanned/undesired pregnancy.. and humans have had that for as long as there have been humans. All nature is concerned with is that our species procreates; it does not set the rules or social guidelines for doing so. Oddly, it’s medical science that brought us to this conundrum (sometimes it’s good to be ignorant). Personally I think the only solution is.. let’s ignore the idea that science is there to abort. That means, absolutely no abortions at all, for any reason. In effect, return ourselves to the position humanity was in before abortion. Then you can shift the “blame” back over to fate, the Almighty, whatever… and it’s all part of life (and death) in human existence.
      Makes me wonder a bit… if all the dissent over abortion rests with the idea that humans are trying to play God, then couldn’t the same be said for the act of copulating and creating life?

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  2. The pro-choice side sees it as a struggle against the “patriarchy” over obsessive control over women’s bodies and has decided that men have no say in the matter

    The idea that men have no say in the matter hasn’t got much to do with a struggle against the patriarchy. The law generally allows people of both genders to make medical decisions for themselves unless they are minors or incapacitated in which case we allow their next of kin to make the decisions. It would be a huge departure from that to allow men a legal say in the pregnancy of women. In effect we would be letting any man who slept with a woman or even claims that he slept with a woman to make decisions about her pregnancy. That doesn’t just include termination, but prenatal care and other private medical decisions. Obviously that is unreasonable and the law nationwide reflects that.

    and argue that person hood and the rights that come with it don’t start until birth.

    This dismissive attitude towards the unborn that you attribute to pro-choice people is not reflected in the laws of even the bluest states. Late term abortions are nearly impossible to get even when medically necessary.

    Personhood in this case Is a legal term. The fact that unborn babies don’t have it is not a reflection on the value of human life in the womb but another matter of legal reasonableness. Most of the time the needs of an unborn baby and the needs of a mother are not in conflict. When they are the mother is still the best person to decide how to balance those conflicting needs. She’s got more skin in the game than anyone else capable of making a decision.

    For example a woman with a high risk pregnancy may decide with her doctor that it is better to induce labor or have a c section at 36 weeks than to risk the health complications that could come if she waits for labor to start naturally. Generally it is better for babies to wait for labor to start naturally at full term. However that same mother might have refused to deliver at 30 weeks because the risk to her baby’s health was too great in her opinion. If the baby has legal rights of her own then the mother and her doctor have additional and unnecessary legal barriers to making these kinds of decisions.

    Legal personhood for the unborn simply isn’t practical or reasonable even in situations where everyone involved is trying to get the best possible outcome for mother and baby.

    I lean more pro life than pro choice and think that abortions should be very rare and only had when necessary. However I cannot get past the many legal issues that follow outlawing abortion.

    A few more examples of the legal issues:

    1. How does the government know that a woman is pregnant and what she and her doctor are doing about it? Is someone obligated to report this information? What about medical privacy? Do pregnant women lose their right to it? Privacy is the legal basis of Roe v Wade.

    2. If an abortion is a crime then miscarriages are deaths and potential crimes that need to be reported and investigated. The Mayo Clinic claims that 10 to 20 percent of known pregnancies end in miscarriage but that the actual number of miscarriages is much higher because many women miscarry without knowing that they are pregnant. How will we balance prosecuting abortion crime with the right to privacy? Are women obligated to report miscarriages and possible miscarriages to the government?

    3. If Roe v Wade is overturned and abortion becomes a state to state issue then at best we can make abortion slightly inconvenient for women in red states. If leaving the state that we are in to travel to a state where abortion is legal is a crime then we are all essentially subjects of the state that we live in (or travelled through)instead of citizens who are free to participate in whatever legal activities we choose. GA is trying this and I expect that the law will be tossed because it is so impractical and sets such an unreasonable precedent. (Imagine all of the things that people could be accused of conspiring to do as we move from city to city and state to state with different laws.) But without this kind of law women who want abortions in red states will just have to travel a bit to get one.

    4. If we decide to only allow abortion in cases where it is medically necessary then who determines how much medical risk a mother must endure before she is allowed to abort? Is it the mother, her doctors, the father of the baby, the government or a judge or some combination? What happens when they disagree?

    5. If we allow abortion in cases of rape and incest then how will we prove that this crime occurred and resulted in pregnancy first? What’s to stop women and girls from claiming that they were raped or molested when they want abortions? Is there a legal obligation to report rape and incest and prosecute the perpetrator or are women allowed to keep those experiences between them and the good Lord?

    I simply don’t see a reasonable, practical way to outlaw abortion in this country.( There are from what I can see, no other countries that have outlawed abortions where people enjoy the same rights and freedoms that American citizens do.)

    If you or someone else here has one, I’d love to read it. Without a reasonable way of enacting anti-abortion laws that addresses these kinds of issues all of the arguing and marching around in the street at rallies is pointless. I certainly understand the passion and principles behind the argument on both sides, but logically it is quite obvious why the pro-choice side keeps winning.

    Thankfully abortions are declining anyway.

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  3. Hello again LoR. I hope everything is well with you. 🙂 ❤ This is certainly a blog-post that will always solicit heated debate. Duh, right? LOL

    Abortion, Pro-life, Pro-choice, embryology, etc, is all certainly a controversial medical/biological subject that as a male, with two incredible children of my own, of which I did my utmost (infrequently to exhaustion & near collapse) to not only take account of and responsibility for MY actions in the heat of human chemistry. I was excited to love and raise them in the most exceptional ways, commitment, and love as I could possibly do — because I had been so very fortunate to have the same, in my childhood and adolescence, extraordinary role-models of uncles in my paternal family. The family support and unity of my Dad’s immediate and extended family were unmatched by many comparisons that I have witnessed in my own life. Of course, this included my own Father’s example. I was very well equipped to have an equally beautiful, strong, loving, kind, compassionate, disciplined, selfless family of my own — until…

    …their Mother committed abortions (of sorts) on my full-time fatherhood when my daughter was 8-yrs and my son only 18-mons old… officially that is. She actually started the slow death (divorce proceedings) years earlier. Why do I share this post-natal story? Glad you asked LoR! 😛

    Because my Father and his family, along with my Mother too, taught me EVERYTHING unabashedly there was to know (in the 70’s – 80’s) medically, biologically, emotionally, intellectually, and economically about sexual passions between humans and their many healthy benefits, as well as their possible hardships. And so here’s my point about the debate of 3rd Party interventions (strangers, government, religious wackos), intrusions by total strangers into people’s private sexual affairs — i.e. the point BEFORE there is a zygote — and eventual parenting/family.

    With the exception of rape and incest, WHY… since the 1500’s when several effective abortifacients (not the pill) were well-known in many parts of the world, including Europe, and used successfully right after intercourse to 1-3 days after intercourse, are these EASY, PREEMPTIVE SOLUTIONS still not widely known and practiced today!!!??? This widespread ignorance of historically well-known abortifacients utterly baffles me in the 21st century!!! 😵🤯

    But what do I know? I’m just a responsible, caring, accountable Neanderthal that doesn’t understand the process of ‘horny’ 1st encounter to zygote, right? 🙄🤭

    P.S. I had really, REALLY hoped you would comment and join-in the discussions LoR of my blog-series Black Underworld Incorporated. I was sad you never did. 😦

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      • Oh dear. I see you’ve made several comments now. My apologies LoR. I truly wasn’t wanting or soliciting you to kindly rush over and comment. I was just letting you know (primarily) that I was hoping you’d offer YOUR valuable perspective and knowledge, as we don’t see eye-2-eye on everything (LOL), but numerous diverse POV’s are invaluable for progress, yes? 🙂

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  4. This is nothing to do with the oppression of women or the ‘patriarchy’ it is about the rights of the innocent unborn.

    The overwhelming majority of babies are conceived as the result of a woman agreeing to have sex, an act, the ultimate purpose of which is conception. Agreeing to have sex (often sinfully outside of marriage) is the point of ‘choice’.

    A very small minority are the result of rape or other instances of coercion. But whatever the circumstances the child is completely innocent. And if murdered is an innocence victim.

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  5. “What I cannot and will not consider though, is the total disregard for the fact that there even is a separate life to consider in the equation!” …

    And THAT’S the thing of it! Wonder if there’s any pro-choicers out there who aren’t glad THEY weren’t aborted? …Unless they’re self-loathers. Pro-choicers act like birth control isn’t even a more rational choice, preventing pregnancy since the ’70’s and even before that with rhythm method, just pull that dang-thang out, or just keep your panties on legs and your closed! Oh, and guys, you can do your part too. Keep it zipped.

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  6. One thing about these heartbeat bills and the shrill freakouts by pro-abortionsts: it really reveals them to be exactly what they accuse pro-lifers of: hateful, ignorant, irrational, bigoted, often violent (physical attacks on pro-life demonstrators have become very common) and completely incapable of reality based, evidential defense of their position. That’s why they have to rely so much on emotionalism, distraction, false equivalence, strawmen, ad hom, misinformation and outright lies and deception.

    Most of the foaming-at-the-mouth reactions are old and tiresome (pro-lifers are all old conservative white men, the patriarchy wants to control women’s’ bodies, pro-lifers are forcing their religion on others…), and scientifically illiterate (the fetus isn’t human, it’s just a clump of cells, it’s a part of the mother, like a tumor, it’s a parasite…). The newer ones I’m seeing are interesting, but not in the way they seem to think.

    One I’m seeing is the snarky “gotcha” thing about how men should all get mandatory vasectomies (to be reversed, when they are “ready” to have children). Aside from being logically incoherent, it confirms the thing they often try to deny, as they wail about pregnant 11 yr olds and rape/incest victims: abortion is just another form of birth control, nothing more.

    The other is the bizarre claim, in various forms, that the developing child doesn’t have “permission” to use their body as an incubator. The sheer insanity and denial of biological reality of that one actually makes me wonder, how do they manage to function in their day to day lives? It reeks of psychopathy.

    On the plus side, with so many people commenting on social media about this, it gives the opportunity to have the discussion and provide logical, evidential responses. The hard part is staying on topic. Any time you address the fallacies of one point they’ve made, they just use distractions like those you’ve included in your post, and are in full view in some of the comments. Some pro-abortionists, however, are not completely lost to emotionalism, and I’ve been able to have actual conversations with people (in between commenters hurling foul language and vile, personal insults at me). Sometimes, you can even get to the core of the issue for some individuals, and discover that there was some event they experienced that has twisted their world and hurt them so badly. One young woman I’ve been speaking to eventually revealed, as a child in foster care, how unloved she felt, and that at only 11 yrs old, she wished she were dead, and that’s why she is in favour of abortion. I was never in the foster system, but I do understand those feelings, and I could tell her that she was still worthy of life. Then and now. She and I are both survivors, not victims. Supporting abortion for her was all about that traumatized child she used to be.

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  7. Sex is a pleasurable feeling tied in with the act of procreation of our species.

    Whether you say it feels good as design by a deity or random evolution made it feel good so we would do that and female humans can always mate to keep men around.

    But both those main views say it feels good as a means of coupling and to get more babies.

    But somehow in our advanced society when we are smarter and have more ways to prevent a pregnancy than have ever existed in the past people still can’t figure out that unprotected sex leads to babies. So they cover there actions with a murder.

    Years if public sex Ed classes and many things and they have no excuse in the majority of cases.

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  8. Wow! Once again, Lady of “Reason” (I can only assume the nom de plume is irony, perhaps?) you astonish me with your lack thereof. You are the one that doesn’t “get it.” It is none of your business what another woman does with, or chooses for, her body, period, end of story. Should there be reasonable limits to abortion? Yes, of course there should be and there are in many states (primarily Blue, surprise, surprise!) I know you’re a “conservative” (whatever that means,) and your ideology is almost effectuated exclusively by men (white, Christian, men) which includes “small government” off of our backs, etc. etc., etc. We’ve been listening to this drivel for decades. So to impose YOUR ethics and so-called morality on to others is hypocritical in the extreme. Furthermore, I know of no one that takes the idea of abortion casually, as you assert. That is a ridiculous and false notion. There are so many reasons why a woman might make this choice, many simply medical, others personal – e.g., lack of financial resources to raise a child – some because they’re too young to raise a child. (Yes, young kids make mistakes, act carelessly, make bad choices, etc.) Perhaps they’re still in school and a child will serve to complicate their lives in a way that will have long-lasting effects on their ability to grow into self-sufficient, responsible, productive people. Whatever the reason, it is their choice and their choice alone and simply none of your business.

    This is about the “right” (or, in this case, the “wrong,”) imposing their beliefs on the lives of others for the sole purpose of hanging on to the evangelical voters, without which they’d go down the proverbial political tubes. They couldn’t care two shakes about the lives of minorities or anyone else for that matter or their policies wouldn’t be so cruel and heartless. Americans support woman’s right in this area and the numbers bear this out: a full 79% of Americans believe that abortion should be available in some way, shape, or form. And, yes, agreed, the young and the irresponsible should be taught not to be cavalier or lackadaisical about such an important topic but that still doesn’t give anyone else the right to impose their beliefs on others. But your side (conservatives, not Christians, per se) would not agree to support programs to assist an unwed mother with the child after birth. They continue to cut the budgets for such programs that provide funds for SNAP, Medicare, Medicaid, day-care, and everything else. Since this is in fact the case, then keep your ignorant opinions to yourself. If abortion is not right for you, then don’t have one! It was never an option for my wife an I; we would never have considered it. However, that didn’t give us the right to force our opinion down the throats of all other Americans. That is Christian/Conservative hegemony and we (the majority) aren’t having it. They would have a 12 year-old girl, raped perhaps by her own father, take that child to term and force her to care for it for the rest of it’s life, whether or not it is complicated by Down Syndrome or other life-altering medical issues. THAT is immoral and unethical especially from Conservatives & Christians that have no basis for such a position other than their god nonsense. There is nothing in the Bible about abortion in either the Christian or Hebrew Bibles, not a single word. And, by the way, read Samuel and see what their “god” does to David and Bathsheba’s baby born out of wedlock and come back and talk to me about the sanctity of life! Read Exodus and see what the “lord” does to the children of the Egyptians during the Passover! Infanticide! Were these not his creations also? Were they also not innocent?)

    Please, spare me. Your argument is all about imposing your ignorant “morals & values” against the will of others, in this case, the majority. If it weren’t perhaps we’d see more assistance to those that require understanding and support from society at large, instead of corporal punishment and life-altering retribution. Until and unless your side is willing to take such responsibility into account, spare us the pious, narrow-minded nonsense and let others live their own lives with their own consequences.

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    • Believe what you will about abortion, I’m putting that aside for now to say you and YOUR side need to find another whining point than the cliche “old white men are the enemy” virtue signaling. For the so called party of tolerance and understanding, take a good look in the mirror yourself before accusing us of hypocrisy. And it’s laughable to play the “Bible Thumping Fundie” card to a fellow atheist 😉 And do re-read the caveats I added that many pro-lifers don’t regarding pro-choice arguments I can consider as well…

      But answer this for me though: What motivation do these white men have for controlling women’s bodies? I mean, if men want to be selfish, shouldn’t they encourage more abortions to avoid paying child support and cover up their half of the mistake too? What’s in it for them if the woman has to keep the baby other than 18 years of child support? There’s nothing in it for the guy if he is saddled with an unwanted kid…

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      • The irony is that it was 9 white men who legalized abortion, and more male lawmakers working to defend abortion. Pro-life organizations, marches and sponsors of bills are mostly women. The “patriarchy” supports abortion. Then there’s the fact that more non-whites get abortions than whites – in some areas, there are more black babies killed by abortion than allowed to be born – something that would have made Margaret Sanger proud. Racism drives the abortion industry. There is also the fact that female babies are more likely to be aborted than male. Around the world, millions of little girls have been aborted, just for being female. Abortion is a tool for gendercide.

        For pro-abortionists, I’ve found they are so emotionally tied to their “right” to kill their children, that they are completely blind to logic, reason, statistical data or scientific evidence. They prefer to live in their own alternate universe of their minds, and get so very angry and unhinged when their reality is challenged – as demonstrated above!

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      • I do find it a bit ironic that many who choose to ignore science as it relates to evolution or climate find it convenient to believe it when it pertains to abortion.

        BTW, overall ACCURATE statistical data on abortions and the demographics is nearly non-existent…. and at most it’s speculative based on isolated samplings and research. In large part this is because of incomplete reporting procedures in many states. In one report there was a reference to Florida actually keeping track of the reasons… but somehow a number of 75% of the reasons being “elective”… which I take as meaning “non-clinical” or not medically required. Absolutely ridiculousness data collection., if true. Those 75% had reasons… but apparently the biased number was preferred.
        Now… I rather prefer to not argue one way or the other on the morality of abortion but I will argue that to solve the “problem” is far more than just proclaiming that “babies are being killed and there outta be a law”. There are reasons people are making the decision to do abortions and those reasons need to be addressed socially or else the ramifications of a blanket prohibition, as in Alabama, are going to ripple through society. Just reversing Roe v. Wade and having a celebration party at the end of the day does NOT solve the overriding problem… which is.. how do we address the issues that made people want to have abortions to begin with. Because for certain, making abortions illegal is NOT going to stop or control pregnancies. In fact, one might even make the observation.. over the last 40 years of Roe, why hasn’t the anti-abortion movement made any advances toward understanding why abortions were being done and trying to address those issues?

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      • Oh, Doug. There you go again. 😉

        Your first paragraph is a fallacy of faulty comparison. There is no connection (you are also making all sorts of assumptions in the process, and introducing a red herring).

        Another example of poor argumentation is your attempt at rebutting Florida statistics (also, by your argument, we may as well throw out all collected data, because they will *all* have inaccuracies and gaps. That is not the problem. The problem is usually how the data is processed, and that’s where bias often takes over, and science become scientism – and once again, it’s a red herring distraction). I’ve seen that list of Florida data. It includes rape, incest, health of the mother – both physical and psychological – and even financial difficulties. Which means that the remaining “elective” 75% is just that: not medically necessary, but done anyways. Now, some of the other items listed would be considered “elective” from a medical standpoint, too: rape and incest victims that do not have a medical need to terminate a pregnancy (which shouldn’t even be part of the abortion debate at all) are elective. Financial reasons instead of medical reasons is elective. That last 75% was for “no reason”, because of all the other reasons already included. Of course the mother has her own reason, and yes, those reasons aren’t included. For example, a woman being forced to have an abortion by her parents/boyfriend/husband/pimp/rapist isn’t going to be able to give that as a reason for her “choice.” I recently read of a survey of post abortive women that found 43% were coerced into abortion. Clearly, those motivations aren’t going to be listed in the Florida statistics, because a woman being forced or coerced into an abortion isn’t going to give that as her reason when she’s in the middle of getting one.

        I do agree that we need to deal with the reasons women are getting abortions, but RvW is *why* those issues have been so hard to address. Pro-lifers have been doing all sorts of work to address them. Crisis pregnancy centres (there are more of them in the US than abortion clinics) provide women with all sorts of support. This is all done by donation, so they provide what they can, but among the things they provide is prenatal health care, counseling, donations of clothing (for the mother, too, if needed) and other material needs. If necessary, they help with finding affordable housing and even employment – assistance continues beyond birth, because despite the frequent accusation, pro-lifers actually do care about babies after they are born, too. On a more personal level, pro-lifers that are in a position to do so also foster and adopt infants that would have been aborted. There are many organizations out there to help women in crisis pregnancies, but they are often attacked for being “anti-woman”, and other misinformation, to keep women from going to them and getting free help, instead of buying abortions. Abortion is a very lucrative industry, after all.

        You’ve touched on an issue that reveals another problem with abortion. It’s a bandaid solution to other problems. As long as abortion is the “easy way out”, those problems cannot be properly addressed, no matter how much people have been trying over the last 50 years.

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      • And there YOU go again.. inserting quasi-conspiracy redherrings yourself.. as if a profit motive is “sinful” in any activity. No question I’m a guy.. and guys on the bench did the RvW thing to begin with.. and guys in some state legislature voted to ban abortion. Guys don’t usually get pregnant so not likely I will ever experience the emotional swings of child birth or the mother’s anxiety of how to raise the child. But I also was adopted as a baby. When I was in my 40’s the extended birth family got in touch with me and it turned out I was the youngest of 6 who were given up into the world of foster care.. I was lucky. It was a different world back in 1951.. abortions were illegal and generally unheard of except in dark alleys and with coat hangers. Social Services of the day came down and took the others away from birth mother because she was unmarried and they were destitute and living in squalor. Birth mother still managed to find another gentleman and I was the result.. and by that point “they” convinced her to give me up. Do I somehow “feel glad” I wasn’t a terminated abortion? How in gawds name can I even answer that? I simply would not have existed. BUT.. having said that… I was adopted by loving parents while the rest of the kids all ended up with troubled lives being older and “sentenced” to be raised in foster care. Is there a right or wrong to it all? If so.. who decides exactly which?

        Again.. my whole point is NOT the debate itself. The average woman certainly does not “want” to give up her baby.. especially “that” way. The problems rest with the reasons she might come to grips to make that decision. So far little has been done. One might assume if my birth mother had aborted me she might very well have lived out her life likely with guilt. Instead she gave me up for adoption… and she still likely lived out her life in guilt.

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      • Quasi-conspiracy theories? LOL No, I don’t think profit in itself is a bad thing, but if you can’t tell the difference between something as ordinary as how a healthy business works, and companies/organizations willing to kill for power and profit, that’s a problem.

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      • Just read the return reply from Re-Farmer, right under your comment. Yes, it was a Repugnantcan assembly of old white guys that passed the awful abortion legislation in GA. And, as a woman, how can you NOT see the the terrible was in which women are treated by conservatives! It’s laughable! Who defeated the Equal Rights Amendment in the 70’s? Conservatives, including conservative WOMEN! Who shoot down equal pay legislation as recently as the Obama administration? Who voted against the Lily Ledbetter bill? Wow! Really? You’re totally cool being treated as a 2nd class citizen? So be it, vote away!!

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  9. People act like pregnancy is a shock. Once in a while it is an honest mistake a break in a condom or rape. But those would number in a single digit percentile.
    The majority are just people that like to have sex and want to not use protection.
    It is not like there are hoards if niece people confused as to how pregnancy beings. People know they just can’t be bothered to follow simple steps to reduce odds because they enjoy unprotected sex or any other reason. Ones that are not legit as a reason to commit murder

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  10. Well Lady of Reason, it may be a separate entity but it’s MY UTERUS. It’s my blood supply, it’s MY BODY that belongs to me and I’d be more than happy to give you the fetus to care for after it’s taken out of MY UTERUS. Feel free to look towards its needs then. Or find/creat another uterus willing to care for it. Unfortunately, you don’t have permission to use mine. Graduate Women’s Health Nurse Practitioner here that will be more than glad to prescribe RU468 in my state that allows me to give my patients autonomy over their body. Send me an address and I’d be more than happy to send the clots, and products of conception once my patient has passed them. You’ll just have to search through the mess on your own. My regards to the Transformed Wife. Her post on “logical debating” is the most ironic yet since all she can say is the same repetition of “because god said so” over and over again with her emotional ridden posts about needing a husband. Tell her I posted the link to her rape promotion video on her husband’s work page review. They should loud and proud about their values in ALL aspects, since that is what Jesus said. Cheers and namaste.

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    • And once you decide to have a child they leech off your bank account, and live in your house, but all sides consider it a crime to not provide for their needs… Why is putting the child ahead of yourself such an alien concept before they’re born also? When will people get the message having a child is NOT ABOUT YOU…. And P.S., I’m an atheist 🤣

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    • The horror! I got my Mirena placed 2 months before getting married. We’re newlyweds and enjoy interrupted sex courtesy of no screaming newborn. Ah, well. Responsibility!

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    • Why do you identify as conservative, as many of your views fall more in the liberal category. For starters:

      “I’ve said before in other venues,my seemingly fortunate position in life as a white, male, Anglo-Saxon protestant, liberal conservative living in America, and privy to white entitlement,  has pretty much made my opinion on any social, political, or moral subject more or less uncredible given it’s my particular demographic that has been the bane to the existence of all minorities, including the females of my species…”

      Why apologize for what you were born with any more than anyone else? And why can’t you have an opinion like everyone else for wrongs you never personally did??? I disagree with some things you say, but don’t apologize for having an opinion of your own!

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      • Well, thanks for the cordial reply that my background shouldn’t prohibit my opinion.. kind of you to say that. But I suppose I said it as a bit of a commentary itself as a sign of the times; a bit of being exasperated mixed with sarcasm.
        But in supplying the link to my post was meant to encourage your thoughts. I’m not going to debate you.. or anyone else.. but simply looking to present a different perspective and understand the diversity of thought. Abortion is an emotional topic for many folks. I’m simply contrasting it to other avenues where we, as a nation, are killing the living.

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  13. It’s extremely good and hits on so many important points. What I find annoying about pro-lifers is that they don’t have anything to say to women about making wiser choices. And I wouldn’t be sorry to see men who get women pregnant having more financial responsibility for the consequences, after a paternity test. My problem is that I feel that women should be leaned on to not choose these guys. If you could see the dating ads people show me from women on Bumble, Plenty of Fish, etc. looking explicitly for guys with piercings and tattoos, and promising them sex before marriage… it’s a real problem.

    Putting some consequences on irresponsible men and women instead of making the unborn baby pay everything is a great idea.

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